Author Topic: Ghosts of our Pioneers AVAILABLE NOW!  (Read 55006 times)

Offline deka

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Re: Ghosts of our Pioneers AVAILABLE NOW!
« Reply #90 on: January 28, 2012, 07:12:48 PM »
Well it's been a slow read for me... why does life insist on getting in the way of a good read??? :)

Really, really enjoying the book so far. I've found the investigations to be quite interesting and the way Mary has written them from a real 'fly-on-the-wall' perspective is just fantastic. I've also really loved the history side of things, though some of the small errors in dates and ages in the book do nag away at me.

I am finding myself asking questions here and there throughout the book too, and I love it when a book (or even a movie) has me doing that, it means I'm right into it. :)

Was really quite interested in the coffin at Como too so did a quick search as this is similar to something else I've just been looking into. There were of course quite a number of funerals that commenced journey from Como, one of them was a man named Ewan, a valued servant for 34 years, which is a very long time!  Could the name William which was heard, have been Ewan? The name is very close, although the book seems to settle on the fact that it was likely Ethel's casket due to the mourners, etc. Very fascinating.

Hoping to read some more tonight.

Offline Christine

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Re: Ghosts of our Pioneers AVAILABLE NOW!
« Reply #91 on: January 28, 2012, 09:40:04 PM »
No, a servants coffin wouldn't have been in the Morning Room the way this one was.

When you mention "some of the small errors in dates and ages" what dates etc do you think are incorrect?
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Offline deka

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Re: Ghosts of our Pioneers AVAILABLE NOW!
« Reply #92 on: January 29, 2012, 11:59:14 AM »
Only small confusions Christine, you might be able to help me make sense of them. eg on Page 84 mention is made of the students being taught in the area known as the Altar Bar in the 1980's but earlier in the book reference is made to how the convent closed as a school in 1973. Or was this during the time of it being a Community Centre? It isn't really clear, and the mention of Mrgt Turner being a lay teacher doesn't really help clarify it as lay teachers also were also used to come in and assist nuns in certain areas of academia (perhaps not at Daylesford though?).

As a family historian I have a particular interest that dates and ages being written as fact should flow, so in the Como chapter it says that George & Elizabeth (nee Peters) Armytage married in Hobart in 1818. The paragraph that follows the table of their children then goes on to say that George died in 1862, with his wife Elizabeth following him in 1876 at 51yrs. So if Elizabeth was aged 51 when she died in 1876 that means she had to have been born circa 1825. How can that be when she was supposed to have been married in 1818? And I checked the table in the book to see if the George referred to was their son, and therefore a generation out, but his wife's name is given as Louise. So who is the Elizabeth, wife of George, who died in 1876 at 51yrs?

The Vic Pioneers Index BDM CD does however have an Elizabeth Armytage, daughter of Richard Peters & Elizabeth Hughes, who died in 1874 at the age of 72yrs. This would make her born circa 1802, which makes her able to be married off at the age of 16 in 1818. Could this actually be George's wife?

Also not surprising at all that George wed the daughter of a convict. In the early days of VDL the men vastly outnumbered the women, so as long as Elizabeth was the daughter of a convict, and not a convict herself, the marriage would have been more easily accepted. Particularly if Elizabeth was perhaps a Currency Lass.

And the table of George & Elizabeth's children states that Charles Henry Arymtage died aged 51 years, then reference is made twice later that he did aged 52 years. Also Ellen Sinclair Tuckwell's age at death is given as 16, but death notices in the papers at the time give her age as 15yrs. The BDM index states 16 so I wonder if it was a possible transcription error? I do know that the BDM's are full of them and everything has to be cross-checked with other sources where possible. I was told many years ago that the people who were employed to do the transcriptions for the database had little to no interest in history, let alone family history. It's a pity really. I spent 2 years looking for my great-great-great-grandmother's death which I finally located under a name which had been sloppily transcribed. Yet the certificate is very clear to read and the letters of her surname were well defined... go figure.

I'm also having a problem with the Gardener's recollection of Bertram Armytage committing suicide at Como. Perhaps the reason his imprint is so strong is because his body was brought to Como after his death, and it is from here that the funeral procession commenced on its way to Boroondara? So the sense of mourning his death would, you'd think, be strong at Como, especially a death by suicide with lots of unanswered questions. I'm not convinced that this information was "witheld from the public at the time" but do find it possible that the gardener's recollections of an event that happened before his employ may have been somewhat askew. Who knows how second or third hand his information was? Was it told to him by someone who was there at the time? Or by someone who was told by someone who was told by someone who was there? It's all speculative really, but I do applaud the picking up of the circumstances surrounding his death.


Offline deka

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Re: Ghosts of our Pioneers AVAILABLE NOW!
« Reply #93 on: January 29, 2012, 12:41:43 PM »
Oh and I should mention that I simply and absolutely cannot resist family jigsaws! :) I once re-wrote the ending to my great-great-great-great-grandfather's story after refusing to give up and accept that he died in a pauper's home for ex-convicts in Tas. A matchable name with a death date but no other identifying cross-checkable details didn't sit well with me and I had a feeling there was so much more. There were 3 other distant rellies who I met during my researching who had put together the family tree and they told me that they had exhausted all avenues and that their research was correct. One had even compiled it into a written dossier that was being distributed within the family as 'fact'... she had to tear it up and re-write it once I found our ex-convict had moved to Vic and became very successful, re-married and lived to a ripe old age with considerable assets to his name, far from the destitute pauper in Tas who simply shared his name.

I'm like a bull with a red rag when it comes to this sort of stuff... 17yrs of experience as a researcher (both paid and for my own pleasure) has taught me to never leave a stone unturned.


Offline deka

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Re: Ghosts of our Pioneers AVAILABLE NOW!
« Reply #94 on: January 29, 2012, 12:52:29 PM »
Particularly if Elizabeth was perhaps a Currency Lass.

Sorry, that should have read "was perhaps not a Currency Lass". Those born in the Mother Country were considered to be of a slightly superior standing than Currency Lads and Lasses often regardless of their parentage.

Offline Christine

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Re: Ghosts of our Pioneers AVAILABLE NOW!
« Reply #95 on: January 29, 2012, 04:56:53 PM »
To admit to a suicide in a family of that stature, in a home of that stature would have been a big blight on both the property and the family. I think it is all together likely it was covered up. we found one document that listed his death at South Yarra. Sorry but the Melbourne Club is not in South yarra by any stretch of the imagination. Also I have been to TMC 3 times, and I have never picked up a shooting death there. I would usually always pick that sort of death up.
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Offline MadMatty

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Re: Ghosts of our Pioneers AVAILABLE NOW!
« Reply #96 on: January 29, 2012, 05:44:23 PM »
Our copy of the book is in the mail now - can't wait to read it!

Offline deka

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Re: Ghosts of our Pioneers AVAILABLE NOW!
« Reply #97 on: January 29, 2012, 07:14:09 PM »
To admit to a suicide in a family of that stature, in a home of that stature would have been a big blight on both the property and the family. I think it is all together likely it was covered up. we found one document that listed his death at South Yarra. Sorry but the Melbourne Club is not in South yarra by any stretch of the imagination. Also I have been to TMC 3 times, and I have never picked up a shooting death there. I would usually always pick that sort of death up.

You raise a very good point Christine and I agree that in a family such as the Armytages a suicide would simply not do!! What document is it that lists Bertram with a South Yarra death? Did you get a copy of the inquest? It would be really interesting to see who gave evidence at the inquest to see if those people were tightly connected with the Armytages.


Offline deka

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Re: Ghosts of our Pioneers AVAILABLE NOW!
« Reply #98 on: January 29, 2012, 07:52:13 PM »
Also I have been to TMC 3 times, and I have never picked up a shooting death there. I would usually always pick that sort of death up.

Okay here's something I've just been pondering... The Argus reported on the 14th Mar 1910 that Betram was staying at the Menzie's Hotel having returned from London some 6wks earlier. On the Saturday afternoon of his death Bertram left the Menzie's Hotel and went to the Melbourne Club with the intention of staying there. A few hours later he was dead.

Christine, following your path of Bertram dying at Como, and given that the Menzies Hotel attendants interviewed the following day that Bertram had definitely left the Hotel Saturday afternoon, it seems more than possible that he went to Como and not The Melbourne Club afterall. The Menzies Hotel staff interviewed that he often was seen pacing around in a lonely hopeless fashion, and in a state such as this it's not unusual for the sufferer to seek out family and familiar surrounding to feel 'connected' to the world again.

So a Menzies Hotel guest checks out and ends up dead several hours later. Of course the Menzies staff are going to be all abuzz at how he had only just left their lodgings, so... quick.. we now have a suicide of a member of a very well-to-do family, and we have to quickly come up with a place of death that isn't the family bolthole. Pull a few strings, call in a few favours, possibly even throw some pounds around, and we come up with The Melbourne Club. Anything's possible I guess.

Offline Christine

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Re: Ghosts of our Pioneers AVAILABLE NOW!
« Reply #99 on: January 29, 2012, 09:42:46 PM »
Anything certainly is possible. Especially when you are well connected and want to protect your family etc.

There are other reasons we think the death occured at Como as well, which came to light after the book was sent to publishers so aren't in it.

They have to do with a couple of things we witnessed through the ghosts in the house.

Back to the coffin though, it couldn't have been Ethels as it was an adults coffin, hers would have been much smaller.
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands.
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Offline Colleen

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Re: Ghosts of our Pioneers AVAILABLE NOW!
« Reply #100 on: January 30, 2012, 09:19:34 AM »
It's certainly ok with me Mary.  I would be pleased.
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Offline violet

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Re: Ghosts of our Pioneers AVAILABLE NOW!
« Reply #101 on: January 30, 2012, 09:36:33 AM »
deka your attention to detail is extraordinary. As someone who is reliably baffled by the space-time continuum (I use a spreadsheet for my book plot) I'm amazed.

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Offline mareseatoats

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Re: Ghosts of our Pioneers AVAILABLE NOW!
« Reply #102 on: January 30, 2012, 07:14:57 PM »
Thank you Deka for your interest in the book. I'm a bit time sensitive at the moment, but I'll try to answer your questions. Forgive me if I forget any.

As I'm sure you know, dates can be located from online searches and databases, libraries, reference materials, Government databases including BDM, family journals, and so on. I agree, you have to be very careful to check the details from multiple sources especially considering some are not from authorised sources. Some times you're lucky and they match, but usually they don't for a number of reasons. It's okay when doing family histories that you include multiple details for a single fact  (coming from different resources) especially with the great software that is available these days. It makes it so much easier. Unfortunately, it's a bit hard to do it for a mainstream publication. Those who are not interested in history will get fed up and pick up something else to read instead; therefore, a main idea has to cover the majority of the work. This process is the normal procedure for editing. If you flip to page 520, there is a paragraph explaining that the when dates from multiple sources conflicted against each other then the most likely one was used.

The dates mostly came from government records and were checked against original BDM certificates. In relation to Como House, things a lot more interesting because these contradicted the National Trust's records greatly. After querying this, it turns out that one of the Armytage girls decided to write a journal and bit of a family history and that's where the National Trust had their details. A little more probing turn out that she started recording these facts in her golden years and was using her memory. A decision had to be made and so it led to the government records guidelines. These dates were presented to the National Trust for acceptance.

The convent at Daylesford did close its doors as a school in 1973 and was later a community centre. These dates actually came from The Convent Gallery and from the Presentation Sisters own records and were confirmed with other sources. Some people think it was still a school later than 1973 because they can remember being there, but all records show this was the correct date.   

Getting back to Como, there were a few people who died on the property and if they were servants then they actually died in Como Lodge (the servants quarters). Not all servants were even allowed in the main house. As Christine pointed out, there was far more information uncovered from Como due to ghost tours and other visits there. Not all information could be included otherwise I'd still be writing and the book would be twice as big. We now believe the coffin actually belonged to Charles Armytage. There were other things uncovered that does make more and more sense that Bertram died at Como House. I'm considering putting in a 'What we know now' chapter in the follow-up book.

I hope that helps clear a few things up. Thank you again for taking such a keen interest in it.  :)

To Colleen and Christine,

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Offline Lapismoon

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Re: Ghosts of our Pioneers AVAILABLE NOW!
« Reply #103 on: February 01, 2012, 07:27:32 PM »
I think this is a fascinating research re Bertram and he must have been so affected by his experiences away from home I feel that when he returned home it was "unreal" fitting back in. Society seemed to be so constrained and inflexible to me. I really enjoyed reading this book and I have several family members waiting to read my copy.
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Offline Christine

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Re: Ghosts of our Pioneers AVAILABLE NOW!
« Reply #104 on: February 01, 2012, 10:47:50 PM »
Thanks LM
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family anatidae on our hands.
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